HAITI: JEAN BERTRAND ARISTIDE AND THE BABY

Details on how Jean Betrand Aristide the former president of Haiti organized a human sacrifice ceremony to stay in power

HAITI: JEAN BERTRAND ARISTIDE AND THE BABY

MARIE LUCE BONHOMME RADIO VISION 2000

INTERVIEW WITH SONIA DESROSIERS

(audio available in creole)

______________________


The program started with the usual introductions and then got down to the subject at hand

Marie Lucie Bonhomme : M Sonia Desrosiers : S


S My name is Sonia Desrosiers Lozan I was born 14 October of 1968 in Port au Prince. Before I left the country I was working at APN. (National Port Authority) I lived in the area of Delmas. My last name is Desrosiers, but I married a man in the United States named Joseph Lozan.


M Is you husband Desrosiers that used to work for the government?


S No, My husband- which is living in the United States - we are now separated. I had a husband which is Roland Francois, a powerful chief of OP (Popular Organization) [1] in Lavalas.


M Roland Francois, the one that died I think?


S Yes, on July 20, 2003.


M Can you recall for the listeners of VISION 2000 what were the circumstances of his death?


S Sure, he was assassinated - shot many times. I found his body at the morgue at the General Hospital with those of three other people that were with him the night that he was killed. He was killed on the night of Sunday July 20/21 2003.


M In that moment they spoke of some strife with leaders of Lavalas, who were chiefs of gangs.


S No, Roland Francois died for reasons surrounding the Incident Macdonald [2] because he always had problems with Franco Cadavre Camille who was the right arm of a big criminal supporting the Lavalas regime. Roland always had problems with him. Do remember that Fort Touron and Lasaline always had problems. Lasaline was led by Franco Cadavre. Roland Francois was a chief of OP who used to work for former President Rene Preval. When President Aristide came back to power... there was a problem. If you were with Preval, you couldn't be with Aristide. It's because of those type of conflicts that Roland Francois lost his life, because Aristide believed more in Franco Cadaver and because Franco used to commit a lot of crimes for him. Franco and his brother Roland Cadavre. But Roland didn't want to go into these kind logics, but that's why he's not here today, while they are still in life.

M But Roland Francois still continued to function as a powerful Lavalas chief OP under Aristide?


S Yes, he didn't have a choice after everybody was killed in Fort Touron. The Family in Fort Touron lost almost 200 people, including people that are in jail, like Jean-Claude Francois, Roland's brother who spent two years in prison. And it was only after a lot of talking to Aristide before he could get him out. It was after Roland's death that Jean-Claude finally was released. That's why Roland walks that line. He was obliged to do his mea culpa so he could get the people released, but it wasn't the case with them.


What I can also explain, when Aristide called Roland to the palace in April of 2003. He told Roland he had no sort of deal with Franco Cadavre, because Franco Cadavre had said "Down with Aristide" at Roland Cadavre's funeral [3] in the St Yves church. Oriel Jean even went to talk to Roland at Fort Touron to convince him to come and sit with the President with another comrade named Sony Orelien on the 31 April to prepare Aristide's visit to Lasaline. At that moment Roland was obliged to collaborate. At that moment even when you are opposed to certain kinds of things... you have no choice. The person in power.. When he demands something, you have to comply, even if you don't agree with the logic to commit crimes for him. [4]


M But when they speak of your husband's death, Roland Francois, they also speak of a question of gangs. Roland Francois was an OP chief. Who was he working for in Lavalas?


S Exactly, if Roland was with a gang working for the government he wouldn't have died, and maybe they wouldn't have done it that way because he would have been a protege (have protection) You can say that he wasn't a protege because he died while working with them.


He had about 22 people in jail without counting people who had died. No one helped him. He received no support from the Families [5] inside Fort Touron to organize things. Roland's biggest problem was Labanye and Colibri.... because Roland was Labanye and Colibri's ally. [6] When those guys had problems in Cite Soleir Roland used to blame them (try to convince them not to kill people for the Lavalas regime) because there was another side (two sides of the coin) At that point Roland was very hostile to Minister Privert -Jocelerm Privert ex-Minister - who called Roland to his office. He had asked Roland to give him Labanye and Colibri's heads because Roland controlled those guys. Roland told him that it was out of the question. He did not come here to commit crimes for Lavalas. He could not give him their heads. [7]


M Finally, do you know the reason for Roland' s death?


S Yes, I can explain Roland's death. It's something that's clear. The reason why I am more interested in leaving the country is because the guys who killed Roland are actually in prison. After they finished killing 5 young guys in Fort Touron. Aristide left in February, and in March they killed 5 young men in Fort Touron for us. And after they finished killing the five young men they searched my house. They broke everything I have. They sent a group of attaches to break down my house. Right now they put them in jail. I'm forced to leave the country because, if I don't leave the country I will die when they are released.


My husband's death is something simple... is that July 12, Group184 had to go in Cite Soleir where the government had given Labanye and Colibri orders to kill Group 184 people. When Labanye explained that to Roland... Roland said.."Out of the question!" He said that if the President wants to kill people he will have to go down there and do it himself because, when they (Aristide and his associates) leave..., where are we going to go?

What do they give us to commit these crimes for them?


Right now, they know Roland's point of view even though they blame the Group 184 for other people that died in Cite Soleir, they still had a plan for Roland. Franco Cadavre, who was the director of the Marche du Port - its in an area inside St Jean Bosco- had planned to burn the Marche Macdonald and accuse Roland, because Roland was working with Group 184.


And that's what happened.


The plan was for two people, Roland Francois and Benson Jean, director of security in APN, to be accused of the crime. He was also forced to leave the country after Roland's death, because of that same group of people who killed him ). It's Pierre Richard (he is in jail himself right now) he was inspector, chief of the commissariat of Delmas 62, that was Roland's friend. He's the one that Roland called in the middle of the night when he needed to have someone who was throwing rocks at his house arrested. Inside the commissariat. There is a unit called "Back up 5".. They came and arrested Roland between 11:30 PM and mid-night. They killed Roland with three other people.


M Back up 5 - are these guys policemen?

Why did they call them that?


S Yes. They take people for Hell. They don't take people for Paradise - that gang of policemen. And the head of that gang Michael-Ange Dauphin that came Agent 4 to Commissioner of Police in 4 months. Jean-Claude Jean Baptiste gave him that promotion. [8]


M OK, you talk of your dead husband as a powerful chief of OP. Since President Preval left he started to have problems.. It's another game that killed him. But the way you are talking, your husband wasn't a saint. It's not that easy to have that power. [9]


S Roland was from Fort Touron. He was doing a good educational work, working with the youth. When he realized that he was starting to have problems with Franco Cadavre - who was killing a lot of people; when they started to have a conflict over the Croix de Bosale. That's a Marche [10] that President Preval had given Roland to control... where he could help some young guys getting jobs working at the City Hall in Port au Prince.


When Aristide got power, Franco started to have ambitions and became aggressive. President Aristide gave him Croix de Bosale. That's how the conflict started between Roland and Franco Cadavre. It's at that point that Roland - his name started to show up in some kind of things. They used to talk about him. But Roland never committed any crime for Rene Preval or anyone. When President Aristide came to power he had called Franco with Roland and had them sit together and told them. "You both are Lavalas. You must put your heads together to make things easier." But Franco had taken things in another sense because he felt he was a super chief. Aristide told him it's a soccer team. He told Roland it's a soccer team. You can stay on the bench but that doesn't mean he's not part of the team. You can be a reserve. At the right moment, another player gets tired... we will put you in the game. At that moment Roland started to take note that he wasn't in Aristide's team.


M But Sonya, they way you are speaking about that meeting... were you there at that meeting between Aristide and Franco Cadavre Camille.


S No, I wasn't there at the meeting, but I had friends that were there. Roland has an organization named RPCS it had a delegation of 4 people that came from Lasaline, plus 4 people from Fort Touron that explained to me how the meeting went. At that time I used to speak to Franco also. He explained to me what came out of the meeting.


M Your husband Roland died. Was it settling of accounts?

But you also, Sonya, they could have considered you a Mother of the Base of the gang. You were also in Lavalas


S Naturally, when my husband died, I screamed ..."down with Aristide!!" Roland died and left me with three kids and it was Aristide who killed him. I said I would not walk with Aristide any more. When Roland died I was pregnant at the time. That shock caused problems with the birth. When Privert called to give me pressure, he told me if I continued to talk he would have me killed. I was forced to remain quiet.


I called the guys that I had accused. I said, here's that gang that killed Roland - they are in power. Just stay calm and let Franco Cadavre do what he has to do. One day, like today,(2004) we will have power and we can say what hurts us. [11]


M What I mean by that is that you also used to participate in meetings inside of the palace. They even invited you at ceremonies that are taking place at the National Palace. We are going to talk about the baby Nanoune Myrthil.


S Well, I started to go to the National Palace after the death of my husband because Roland was an employee of the National Palace. When President Aristide had given an order that either myself, or Roland's daughter - who is 22 years old - could recuperate, could pick up his check... his check from Preval... Because I don't have a child with him, his children could cash the check under their name. They could pay the school with it. It's at that point that I used to go to the National Palace so I could take care of these things..


M How much did they used to pay Roland.


S 5000 gourdes per month


M What was his occupation?


S He was a Charge Mission. It was a consolation prize Preval used to give them


M All right. Now we are going to talk about the baby Nanoune Myrthil's, the baby that disappeared inside the National Palace.

S I wasn't Mother of the Base. I had a close relationship with So Anne. So Anne knows me well because when there's going to be a manifestation [12] it is myself and a friend of mine called Philippe Mareau - who is now dead - it was us that used to get the money for the mobilization. Philippe Moreau died in a demonstration after Aristide's departure. Well So Anne called me and Roland, because she used to always invite us when there are parties. We thought we were going to go and eat, dance and drink. It wasn't like that at all. She called be from 557-6555 to tell me that the party was on March the 5th.


Yes, So Anne, I have her phone number for when I need to take money from her for little bands to come out on the streets, For example Fort Touron had Came yo' And Lasaline had Molier. When there's money to be given to Came yo it is always me or Philippe who goes for the money.


M They say So Anne is the person who pays people to attack opposition or student demonstrations. What do you think of that?


S Demonstrations always go out to support the regime, but at some point they get disoriented. It's not everyone that's going to shout "Viv Aristide." You might have a word to say Viv ... but someone else might be there to break down a radio station, or find a journalist and kill him. It all depends upon the evolution inside the Lavalas regime. If you walk towards that logic, to commit crimes for them, you are going to walk on the streets and do a lot of violence. In the meetings, if they know you are hostile against violence, they will give you money to put people out on the streets. But they have two teams. [13]


M You mean they used to give orders to kill journalists or attack radio stations?


S Naturally, after Aristide's departure you must realize that breaking the radio antennas was something that was planned before, and they did it.


M We will come back of the question of radio stations after. But now let's talk about the baby of Nanoune Myrthil. What do you know about that?


S When I got to Tabarre it was 9:30 PM when the party was about to start. It was at President Aristide's house. I was responsible for the Grande Salle at the house. [14] President Aristide came out to greet everybody. That's when I saw Marie Antoinette Gauthier with something wrapped with a towel. I didn't know it was a little baby. It's after, in the big room, after the introductions, there were some people that we met, and they introduced them to us. Roland was there. There were other chiefs of OPs that were there.. Like Franz Desrosiers. Franco Cadavre. The ex-Prime Minister Jean-Marie Cherestal and Myrlande Liberus.


All those people were there and I saw Marie Antoinette Gauthier with the baby wrapped in the towel. And after that I saw her with So Anne, Wiltan Lherisson, They entered a hall, where before I left Haiti, after Aristide's departure, I had shown some foreign journalists that area. Before the ceremony started with the baby wrapped up in the towel. After that they came back out and that's when the ceremony was about to start.

I have to tell you there were a lot of tables of food, because I had gone myself to eat well, to drink well, and to dance. Then when they came out of the big room. They started with the diabolic ceremony.... because you're Haitian, once I start to talk, you understand what kind of ceremony it was..... The prayers started and then I realized that they had come with a lot of different types leafs, and they put them in the pestle and then they put the baby inside the pilon [15] and then they started the ceremony of the pilon in front of us.


. That was so hard for me. I mean it was so cruel that I couldn't wait for the food.


That's when I recalled that during the whole week Nanoune Myrthil was crying. She said she lost a baby the night of February 27/28 at the General Hospital. [16]That's when I realized it could have been Nanoune Myrthil's baby that was in Marie Antoinette Gauthier 's arms.


M Marie Antoinette Gauthier, that we are talking about, was she the delegate (congresswoman) of Department of the West?


S Yes. At that time she was also Director of the General Hospital.


M: OK, give me some precision. Is that the way they just put a kid in the pilon like that?


S No, for the Ceremony of the Pilon , when I realize I didn't hear any cry of the baby from inside of the pilon, because I have someone who was close to me that was inside the secret room (S wasn't) It's a houngan [17]called Grandra or Granndra... that's a houngan from Gressier or Leogane. He's a friend of my husband. He told my husband they had taken the child's heart and placed it in a bottle. They gave it to Aristide and he placed it in his personal room. So the baby came out of the room already dead for them to put him in the pilon.


M At the moment when they put him in the pilon, what was the reaction of the people who were assisting with the ceremony


S Everyone that was there was excited...singing mystical songs and crying that Aristide's five year term was non-negotiable. They will do everything possible to preserve Aristide's power. That's what they had as the theme.


M You're saying that this went on at Aristide's residence?


S Yes, yes.. At Tabarre. When I was in Haiti I brought some foreign journalists and some members of the multinational force to visit where the ceremony went on.


M Is it a secret place in the house, or is it some place in the open..or hidden?


S That room. Only two special people can enter.


M Sonya, in your soul and conscience is everybody that you just named, were they at the ceremony.

S Jocelerme Privert, [18] Jean-Marie Cherestal, [19] Franco Cadavre, Marie Antoinette Gauthier , So Anne, Myrlande Liberus, were also there. There was a lot of other people I just can't recall their names. [20]


M It's the first time Jean-Marie Cherestal's name is mentioned in this kind of thing. Are you sure of what you are saying. Is that the truth.


S Yes, I maintain that because he was present at the ceremony. He was a guest like everybody else. The Mother of the Ceremony was So Anne, Henry Antoine and Marie Antoinette Gauthier. It was them that had held the ceremony, they were the ones doing everything in the ceremony.


M Tell me how the ceremony went on. What was going on?


S Mystical songs, throwing water, lighting candles , something totally diabolic. Dropping " Florida" [21] something typically mysterious.


M Did they mutilate the baby?

Or did they just put him in the pilon


S No, they mutilated it. That is so true. Do you remember Felix Ben Aime, a chief of OP, really powerful in the area of Grand Ravine. Do you remember the death of Ben Aime?

Do you know why they killed him?

They killed him because several times he wanted to denounce them. Every time he needed money he went to see them. He pressured them. He told them if they didn't give him money, give him power, he would talk. He would tell where he buried the baby. That's why they killed him, with three other people.


M Is it because he was blackmailing them?


S Yes, If I had stayed in Haiti, and made this kind of declaration I am making today I might not be here to tell the truth about what I saw.


M I thought you made a sworn declaration in front of a judge, right?


S At that time, don't forget... Marie Luce Bonhomme... Felix Ben Aime was a director of the cemetery of Port au Prince. I think there is a sector of the cemetery where they put the remains of the ceremonies, so Felix knew where they went and put the remains of the kind. [22]


M That means the ceremony was done, and they still went and buried the baby?


S Yes, that's why they killed Felix because several times he threatened to go show where they put the remains of the child.

M Then you are saying that the remains of the baby Nanoune Myrthil are in the cemetery right now.


S Yes it's buried in the cemetery of Port au Prince. When they do these ceremonies they always bury the remains of the dead so when they want to light a candle and call the spirit back... they often do that.


M Let's come back to the ceremony that was going on at Aristide's house. You name a series of names that you say were the chiefs of the ceremony, but who was the one who was mutilating the baby inside the pilon?


S There was Wilton Lherison, So Anne, Marie Antoinette Gautier...everyone. They were passing the plunger from hand to had. Do you know, when you go in the provinces where they are mutilating the petami. [23] Everyone helps out. It's a lot of people have to help until the pite a mi melts.


M You just named a lot of big Lavalas authorities, did they also participate in the mutilation of the baby.


S They assisted the ceremony, like everybody, but the Masters of the Ceremony were three persons. ARISTIDE, LHERISSON AND SO ANNE


M But what day did the ceremony take place?


S Sunday March 5, 2000.


M All these people that were assisting in the ceremony. What was the look on their face?

What was there demeanor?


S Well there was Jocelerme Privert, and Jean Marie Cherestal. They must have known what they were going to assist. I don't think Aristide would do something like this without knowing. Myself, I could have been isolated. Themselves, they were proud. It was something they were doing to hold onto power. It was fine for them. But, myself, I felt like - someone had to be inside of you - being a mother of a family. I have a son right now, he is 14 years old. It's terrible to see that you are assisting something like that. It's sad. It was a bad day in my life.


M Do you think these people could have known it was Nanoune Myrthil's baby that they were mutilating in the pilon?


S Well, it's when I came out of the ceremony that I am finding out that Nanoune Myrthil was crying and complaining about losing her baby at the General Hospital from February 27 to February 28 and that's when I realized that it cannot be any other baby in Antoinette's arms. Till now they cannot find the baby.


M So you can confirm that Marie Antoinette Gauthier came with the baby wrapped in a towel so that she could mutilate him in that ceremony.


S Yes, wrapped up in that white towel. At that time, if I was close to Nanoune, I would have told her. Unfortunately, I didn't know where Nanoune was. I couldn't go to let her know what happened in this dossier. I held it inside me until I could tell the truth.


M Do you realize that you have made some serious declarations that can have serious consequences in the lives of people you named, if ever you are lying.


S No, I'm not lying. It's so true. Before I left Haiti I went and denounced it when I went and sat with the Commisaire d 'Government. I have a dossier in the Parquet, sealed with the declaration. When I went to make a complaint for the death of my husband, I also denounced what happened with the baby. Something you put at the judicial level it isn't a game,

M So you did the deposition and the Comissiare of Government, he has all of that consigned to paper.


S He has all the facts. It's not something that is staying at my level only. You can verify at the Parquet of the Civil Tribunal of Port au Prince.


M Can you say what the date that you made that deposition and who was there?

You speak of the commisaire of government


S The Commisair of Government is Maitre Audain. He is actually the commisaire of government


M So you made the declarations. Who else was there.


S It was Dieula Cheri. She had gone to make a complaint against Franco Cadavre because he had killed two babies of hers. There's one that disappeared. It was So Anne that went and took the boy, his name was Peterson Jean. He died November 4, 2001. After the fire in Lasaline So Anne went to take the boy at his grandmother's in Delmas 16 close to her house and gave it to Franco, in hand-to-hand, so that Franco could kill him in Lasaline. That lady was present too when I went to make my declaration.


M Give me some more precision who So Anne gave to Franco to go and kill.


S He is Peterson Jean, 19 years old, Dieula Cheri's son It's a lady that went around trying to find justice. I accompanied the lady. " Back Up for Hell" [24] had killed another young man of her's called Emmanuel Desronvil, he was one of the five young men that died in March 2004. I held arms with her and went and deposited the complaint. We were asking for the arrest of Franco Cadavre. When I went to see the Commissaire with her the Commissaire saw where she used to file complaints before and never found justice with the Lavalas regime. [25]


M Let's come back to the question of Nanoune Myrthil's baby. You said the ceremony went in Aristide's house. That means he was there?


S Yes, he was there.


M But, did he participate in mutilating the baby in the pilon.


S No, I did not see him mutilating in the pilon. The leader is always a mambo to do those things,


M Give me some precision. Does that mean that there was a little meeting in a secret room before the ceremony went on?


S I don't know. But what I realize is that those people had gone in that secret room. It's like the oagatwa... a hidden little room where only the Bocor is allowed. Not everyone has access to that place. I don't know while they were in there... what type of meeting was going on. The only thing I've seen is the presence of those people going inside with him, into his personal room.


M But, Mrs, Aristide, was she there?


S Mrs Aristide came and was present during the ceremony.

M We're going to take this another question now, Sonya. It's the question of the fire of Macdonald. Tell me what you know about this.


S About the fire of Macdonald. Everyone knows that Roland died for a cause. Because they say Roland was working with Andy Apaid, chief of the Group 184 and they say that Benson Jean, that was assistant Director of APN, was in contact with Guy Philippe, chief of rebels that had contributed to the fall of Aristide's regime. Because he ( Bensen Jean)was an ex-military, that's what they accused him of.


M They say he used to take money from Guy Philippe. Roland, himself, used to take money from Apaid.


S Yes, Roland received money from Apaid to overthrow the Lavalas movement. It's after the meeting concerning what happened July the 12 th to eliminate Apaid .. By blaming him (Apaid) for burning down the Macdonald Marche. And after that, you know that Roland was someone who was always opposed to Franco and Franco was the one who was director of Marche Duport. They planned a meeting. They said.. Once they burned down the marche they were going place the responsibility on Roland and it's after that Roland would come to lose his life. Roland died because of Andy Apaid.


M Now, let's talk about the burning down of the marche. Do you personally think it was something that was planned.


S Yes, it was something that was planned. That meeting had taken place at St Jean Bosco. Roland was the only chief OP Lavalas that wasn't present.


M Go on. Give some more details.


S Present were Rene Civile, Paul Raymond. Many OP Lavalas were there. The guys from Grand Ravine were there. Only Roland was not present at that meeting, because that's where they kept Roland at hand.. (held something against him...) They said ..since Roland cannot assist this meeting, because there was always a conflict between Fort Touron and Lasaline. Franco planned to burn down the marche and - that once they had burned it down - they would put Roland responsible. And you can see, in all of their declarations, they have blamed Group 184 for that fire.


M But what happened in the marche?

Did the people leave, or did the people take things that got burned down.


S What's going to kill Roland is that he was naive, or did they save some stuff?

Because I had the Inspector General that was my cousin. Evens Sainturne Us and Roland after the fire, we went to Sordo. [26] When I came back from Sordo, I think the fire went on Saturday


We went to Sordo, When we came back. I think the fire started Saturday and went on Sunday. When we came back we were sitting ..communicating with Evens Sainturne by phone. Even before Franco started the fire he had his gang take everything that belonged to the marchands. They stole everything. He sees all the evidence. We used to work with the Inspector General, myself an Roland, we spent two days, Thursday and Friday working with the Inspector General to try and uncover the evidence. They went and verified, and saw the evidence. We thought we were doing the work in the interests of the power. We couldn't know that it was Aristide who gave the order to burn down the marche... to accuse Apaid. We didn't know that..


M You say Evens Sainturne is a relative of your's?


S Yes, he's close to me. He's a cousin. He was an Inspector General in the police force. I used to always collaborate with him because he was someone who was honest. Since we were down there,( Roland used to go back and forth to the marche) . He was asking Roland what he knew about the fire. And really Roland helped them identify the evidence from house-to-house till he even found where some merchandise was. We thought the job we were doing was a good job, because it was a known by everybody.


M Concerning what you said Sonya , Evens Sainturne might be a little responsible in Roland's death.


S No. When he died. When the body arrived, when it happened, I can't accuse him in Roland's death, I can't accuse him, because on the day Roland died he tried to call him. The day Roland was on Delmas 62 Roland always talked to him on the phone. The day Roland was in difficulty, on Delmas 62, Roland tried to call him during the night, but his phone was unavailable because it was shut. [27] When I called the next morning he said, "What's wrong cousin?" I said Roland had left since this morning. And since yesterday he had called to say he was in Delmas 62. I can't find him. He's nowhere to be found. He helped me to try and find him... to see if Roland was in jail. It's after that I called him and told him I had found Roland at the General Hospital. Roland's death case is something he didn't know at all. I am the one that told him that Roland died.


M What was Evens Sainturne's reaction?


S Well, I have to tell you. He used to work seriously with Aramick Louis who was in the Prime Minister's office. There's someone we forgot to talk about that had a lot of influence in the Lavalas regime. There's not a crime that was committed by Jean-Claude Jean-Baptiste that this lady did not to know about. Her name is Madame Romeo.


M Where was madame Romeo working.


S She was working at the Prime Minister's office. She has someone named Georgette... Madame Romeo..


M Yes, I'm listening.


S That lady is the first one Roland called when they arrived in Delmas 62


M So Georgette answered the phone?


S No she didn't. [28] And the next morning, when I couldn't find Roland, when I called her, I have her cell phone number, she said she received Roland's message on her phone around 1030. Roland said he was in Delmas 62. I needed to have Pierre-Richard Romain give me Roland back because Roland had made clear that he's in Delmas 62 at 1030 - 1100


M Who's Moment Pierre Richard?


S An inspector at Delmas 62, a police inspector. He's the one responsible for Delmas 62. Actually, he's in jail now.


M So it's that police officer that was a part of Group 5.


S No, he's responsible for Delmas. 5 for Hell. Is a group that is in the Cafeteria These guys have been committing crimes since Jean Claude Duvalier left..


M That was functioning for Lavalas.?


S Yes. Their bosses were Jean-Claude Jean-Baptiste and Jocelerme Privert.


M Ok, let's come back to the fire in the marche because you say those guys, that had committed that act.... did something ordered by the government. The people who did that took a lot of merchandise. Since you say that you were working together with Evens Sainturne. Regarding what you said to have Evens Sainturne to know what happened, can you say that the police force itself knew what was going on?

Did they see the merchandise?

Did they know what was going on?


S Yes. We had verified that. On the contrary, there was stolen merchandise that left Lasaline to go all the way to another street called Rue Dessalines. Myself, I had called Inspector Evens. and Roland had spoken to him on his cell phone and told him where we saw it.... every place we identified it. We gave him precise addresses. We thought he had sent a group to verify it. Because everywhere we saw it we asked him..."Did you send people to verify it?" He always said he had sent people to verify it.


M Sonja Desrosiers, now you are living outside the country .. For certain reasons we are not going to say what country you are in, but you are not in Haiti, you are in a foreign country. But, after the death of your husband we heard you on the radio. You have even cried "Down with Aristide' ...the day of the thing, but after that we didn't heard from you. What happened?


S I had quieted down a little bit because the Minister of the Interior had asked me, himself.... asked me to shut up, and Aristide had asked to meet with me. They had never given me a chance. Oriel [29] and Bathelmy never gave me a chance because the President has asked them to take care of me... so I wouldn't talk.


For the question of my rent, since it was my husband who used to take care of me, with Roland's three children, since their mom has no way to support them, it was Roland who used to pay for school, that means, from what they used to give me... that's what I used for the kids. So I never had chance to see the president.


Every time I went on the radio. The last threat that I received was from 5 for Hell which Michel-Ange Dauphin. He was the commissioner of police there. Two weeks before Aristide left, they spread a rumor saying that I was going to burn the Marche Hypolite. Privert gave the order to have me killed before I burned the marche.


Since they had already felt that Aristide was going to leave the country, they said that President Aristide is going to ask for justice. They can get arrested. Because their dossier is really there. Because the Prime Minister's office started, and I have to tell you this, that dossier... if you go and call right now, you will verify. You will find all of Roland's file. And I had gone to NCHR and I had given Lilliane Gilles the whole file. She had them scan Roland's picture and everything. And they had said the first thing that they had to do is get me eliminated. That's why Franco had a second meeting with them to burn down Marche Hypolite him knowing the consequences it would have on the little poor merchants who had borrowed money. So that they could burn down the marche and then they could kill me.


M How did you know that Privert that had given the order to kill you.


S Well, Michel-Ange Dauphine was a close friend. [30] I must tell you... after my husband died.. I was very cautious. When they needed phone cards, they used to come in the area. We were doing OK. Roland had a depot (store) and we used to plan on weekends to give them some money so they could give some food at their home. I had showed them so much that I hadn't known.... that I did not know anything about Roland's death. I had shown them that I didn't know it was them that had killed him. Because I had never made any declarations that is was them.

It's Michel-Ange Dauphine that called and told me that I had to camouflage myself when I went out on the street. That I shouldn't expose myself. If I could leave the country and go to San Domingo.. because Privert had given the order to kill me. Every order that Privert gave was in his hands (Dauphin's) so he didn't hide anything from me. He was forced to tell me to take precautions.


M Sonya Desrosiers, you said that you used to give telephones, you used to give people money.


S Telephone cards. He was close to us. We used to give him telephone cards.


M Roland and yourself. Where did you used to live.


S I used to live by the airport. Roland had built a house in La Pleine. He also had a house on Delmas 75. That's the house that he had that problem and went out to Delmas 62.


M But you guys had no problems coming in and out of Lasaline.


S Yes, after that Before Roland's death, I didn't have big problems because Roland had a business down there. We used to be in the business every day.


M So you guys weren't well thought of, even if you were functioning inside of Lasaline. You guys weren't considered as people who were poor?


S No, we weren't that bad off, thanks to God. We could pay the house. We could pay the school for the kids. We weren't so bad, because Roland's dad was someone who had a lot of possibilities in the area. He had died and left a business, and Roland had taken over.


M If you guys say you weren't that bad, is there a justification to say that you guys were functioning with the Lavalas. That's how you guys made your money?


S No, it's not because of Lavalas. Roland's dad wasn't that bad. His name is Delhomme, Delhomme Francois. He was close to the Duvalier regime. He had a lot of power under the Duvalier regime. You know, at that time he had a lot of property. Yes, his dad had died and left a lot of property to him and his other brothers. And he has a lot of sisters outside the country. They used to help him so he would not to have to live off of Lavalas. As a matter of fact, that's why they killed him; because every time there was a Lavalas activity Roland used to send people on the streets.. They knew that Roland had a sector of the opposition, that he was working for, because Roland never used to ask them (Lavalas) for help.


M. You say that they always knew that he had a sector of the organization that was working for him. Is that true?


S Yes, Roland didn't have anybody. He was not involved with Andy Apaid until after I left the country. I had only seen him on TV. Also Roland is not someone who is always in the street. He's someone that likes business. It's not Lavalas political activities that would put him on the street. He's someone that would never go out. That means Andy Apaid, we don't know him at all. We don't know anybody in the opposition.


The present government can say that there's no way that I don't know them. Since I needed to go to deposit a complaint I sat with the Comissioner of Government and the Minister of Justice and I had told them about the file, but I have no one in the opposition that I really know. Since I can't say these people are in the opposition. The team that just got into power... so I can't say that they are the opposition. I did not know Andy Apaid, nor did Roland.


M Ok, a while ago you were just explaining to me... everything you told me , especially about Nanoune Mythrils' baby. You had filed a formal complaint with the government commissioner. You just named the Minister of Justice. Does that mean you explained everything to them.


S No, I did not explain to the minister.. I just told him that I don't feel secure because since I had did not go into this. Since it's not a file that interests me. I just told him that I they guys got arrested. The guys came to my house with a group of attaches. They broke everything we had. They didn't leave anything for us. I'm sleeping from door- to-door so they can see who I am talking about.


Since they came here with the International Community to change the system and to give justice, I want to know who I should see to get justice?

It's then that he told me to go and see the commissioner of government so I could deposit my complaint. So I deposited it, and I am waiting for my justice. And he had told me that since he can't give me security...He said: "I can't send police to sleep at your house, I can't give you security. Leave everything in the hands of God and try to give yourself security..."


M Are you talking about the present Minister of Justice?.


S Yes, that's the advice he gave.


M But who went to break your house?


S It was the attaches. There was Duga Thelusma a police inspector that' still in the cafeteria. There was Sony, a guy from 5 for Hell - a guy who didn't get arrested. He's ajan 4 (4 bar) and an attache named Jean Robert... there's Maurice, there's another guy named Bravo. I had given all these names in a file at the Parquet. All these people are people who are persecuting me. Walking from door-to-door... once they know I'm friends with someone... they go to pressure that person to give me up because they say I must be killed. I must not find justice.


M When did they break everything in your house. When did that happen?


S They broke everything in my house after the death of the five young men. When I decided to denounce them to the public, and to an international committee that came here with a team that's in power. I had denounced publicly, on all he radio stations, that the same guys that had killed the five young men... they were the guys that killed my husband. I asked for their immediate arrest.


And, really, with the support of the international committee and with the police force that has decided to do an honest job. The police director is a guy who decided to do an honest job. He had listened to me on all the radio station with families of people who had relatives that had died. The family of the young men that had died, Charisse Dieuna's, mom was on the radio station with me. And they heard our cries on the radio. At that time there was no TV for us to talk on. Radio stations like Caraibe and Quiskeya gave us a chance. But, unfortunately, we didn't have a chance to go to VISION 2000, but we spoke on every radio. Everybody gave an interview on radio Quiskeya. This convinced the government in place. Asking them, are they going to let the criminals stay here in the country?. These police officers are still committing crimes. They are going to think it is. So, later on they are going to accuse the next government that will take power.


M So, Sonia Desrosiers you were born Oct 4, 1968. That means you are very young for all of that experience, but right now, you have been forced to leave the country. When you look back and see everything that has gone on The way you see your husband was a big chief of OP ... today, when you look back. Any regrets?


S Well, God has helped me because I didn't fall into all these things my husband had gotten into. If every time someone had lived these things.... Even when I don't denounce when the police killed anyone, or when I worked for someone who was a leader inside the Lavalas government that used to program the killing of people ...if you don't take the time to denounce it.. That's when you aren't helping the system to change.


M What I want to ask you. Do you regret, because when they speak of OP Lavalas - they speak of crime. Do you regret participating in a movement like that?


S I'm not even going to tell you I regret being in the OP... I'm going to tell you I regret voting Aristide. And I am happy that my son didn't have the age to vote him, because to have my son give a criminal like that his vote would be very hard.

M But there's a lot of people Sonia, who voted Aristide and that were not with OP - Popular Organizations -committing crimes.


S But naturally it depends on your path. . If I was involved with someone who was involved in OP then I was forced to hold the line. But if we are talking about someone like Franco Cadavre who was killing people, that was doing certain things, I would not be walking around with this criminal. A criminal...me, I'm not walking around with a criminal. That's why when Franco had problems with Roland I represented a black beast for him. I spent almost 5 months without being able to go to my job with the APN. Because, don't forget, he (Franco Cadavre) was a big chief inside APN. He had given orders for me not to set foot inside the office.


M What was your job in the APN and how much money did you get?


S At first I was a secretary at the APN . My salary was $1012... After Roland's death, I don't know how they did it, they had a concession - agreement with the actual director. His name is Fritz Aristyl. (Aristide's cousin) I was surprised to see that they gave me a promotion. I received a promotion putting me to Charge d'Mission even though I didn't get paid for that title.


M How much money did they give you?


S It is an honorary title. I used to get $1800.


M Ok, how about when you were promoted Charge d Mission.


S They only put $600. (Added $600 to her salary)


M We're going to finish the interview. I would like to ask you a question. Every morning when you wake up and look in the mirror to see how young you are and to see that you have had so many experiences...what do you think?


S. Well, I think that is something I should never have to explain to my kids. It is something I regret in my life. And I would hope that next time, in my life, that I should not be in this position. And I am asking God for forgiveness. Because, since I came in this room, I asked myself this question, since I started to see the beginning of the ceremony, [31] whether I should of stayed and watched. But since there's some things ...by curiosity ..you must see with your own eyes... how many criminals this administration had. So Anne won't be surprised if people in Fort Touron start to come and file complaints for people So Anne had Franco kill in Lasaline and Fort Touron. [32] For as much people after the fire in Lasaline, So Anne had given Franco orders to arrest them and throw them in the fire and burn them just like they had burned the houses of people who were down in Lasaline .


That means So Anne doesn't need to be surprised wherever she is. (Presently in jail pending trial although US Embassy pressing for release) What she did. That's what she's paying for. Someone like Joc Privert. I had always told him, after Roland's death, That Aristide couldn't stay anymore, because I had walked from door to door... where there are churches and had knelt down and fasted all day. I said Aristide has to leave, because Roland didn't deserve to die.


M But Sonya, When you speak of So Anne being in a place. (Jail) But when you think of a state of law, but people like you, people who have been involved in the things you have been involved with.

S I can't say what I know. There's a lot of things that I didn't participate in. I never was got to the point where I a Mother of the Base. Where So Anne used to give me money to go and kill people for her. Aristide never gave me money to go and kill people for him. I told you I became hostile to them. It was something that I needed. Aristide to leave so that I could free my conscience.


M But Sonia, if I really understand from what you're telling me, you became hostile to them since your husband died, but, when I listen to all the things you have been involved in, you were part of a criminal organization. Do you realize that?


S. No, I wasn't in any organization. I had found my husband was walking in a logical organization... OPCS.. When I met Roland, right after I met Roland. I used to be around Fort Touron, just because of the business that I had down there. I have to tell you that I used to live in the area of St Jean Bosco, [33] that's where I grew up. I used to meet President Aristide (actually Father Aristide, at the time) at the mass on Tuesdays and Sundays at 9 . From there I started to get involved with the system (Lavalas). Aristide was talking about a state of right, of changing everything. I knew I could walk in a correct path. But it's after meeting Roland that I started to be in an organization where I used to give advice, and everything. But I know that OPCS is an organization - if you want you can go and verify it... every organization that was committing crimes for Aristide, you will not find OPCS. They were excluded from the Lavalas regime. And also, we would never do this for Aristide. Neither the actual power... that's there now... to go and commit crimes for them. Do it today and you will pay tomorrow.


M How old was your husband.


S. Roland died at 49. He was born in 1949


M OK, he was born in 1949 You told me he started being an OP chief since Rene Preval. You say he used to operate with Rene Preval. I'm pointing out that this is the ex-president we are talking about. Since when have you really started to function as a Lavalas OP.


S Well, I started to function with Aristide after the conflict of November 2001, because right after Aristide took power Franco Cadavre took full possession of Lasaline for himself, with Ronald Cadavre. Roland was forced to stay away. It's Aristide himself that called Roland, after Ronald Cadavre's death. Aristide had called Roland right away so Roland could give him the population(control) of Lasaline, because he had lost confidence in Lasaline ...because of Franco's declarations on the radio. [34] And Roland detested this power because of so many people who had died in Fort Toroun. Most of these dead people were those who were just thrown away. And Franco himself, with Jocelerme Privert, who was Minister of the Interior, always got money, during the conflict, to take care of the funerals for those people. Roland had no one in the power at that time to even go and ask one dime to go and bury those people. Because these people were dying on Roland's conscience, because Roland was with Preval, So when the conflict started, the people in Fort Toroun were always victims because of Roland.


M But did Roland continue to see Rene Preval even after he was no longer president.

S Yes, Roland used to go and see him at his house. Rene Preval came from surgery. [35] Roland raised a delegation and went to see him. And I think, also, after Roland's death, of all the OP chiefs that died, [36] he's the only one that Preval spoke for. I did not hear the declaration but I heard that Preval regretted the death of Roland because they had worked together. It was Roland who cemented the relations in Lasaline for Preval.


M Have you ever seen Preval after that.


S. No I have had no contact at all. I only saw him at a funeral of a friend. I had gone one morning. I didn't say hello to him because he was with his security. He's not someone who is close to me.


M He's not close to you, but he's close to Roland.


S Yes. At the time Roland was triumphing with Preval.... I wasn't used to being in Lasaline and Fort Toroun.


M In what year did you meet Roland Francois.


S I met Roland Francois in the years 1997-98. Because in 1996 I started to work in APN. It's while I was in APN that I met Roland. 96-97... that's when I met him.


M Is that why you became a chief OP .?


S. No, I wasn't a chief OP. But if my husband was following a philosophy... if he had been killing people, I wouldn't have been there. If he was walking a straight path I would be forced to walk with him. Sometime I would give him advice. Try to do things the right way because things you do would follow you. That's why, when Roland died, there was no one who could hold me back. Because I had cursed Aristide so much I thought they would come and kill me at my home.


M Ok, thank you very much Sonia Nazon,


S VISION 2000 - I am very happy. I salute all they listeners that have listened to me. Here's an advice that they should have. Everyone who finds themselves in a situation like the one I was in, even if it is because my husband died. That' why I denounced So Anne. I would always have done it, even if I hadn't lost my husband. It's not because my husband died. It's not because I am hostile. It's not because of anger towards the Lavalas power. It's not because Roland had died. Its something I have always been ready to denounce at the right moment.


M Ok... but since I had thanked you.... excuse me... I have another question. What do you know about... since you had spoken about a journalist. That there were some orders to kill a journalist.,.. And about radio transmitters they had sabotaged on Boutillier...?


S Well, what I know about the radio thing is not much. At that time Roland's check was ready at the palace. I had gone to see the Chief of Protocol Vilbrun... because it was always him that had given me some money when I was broke. I had called him because the President (Aristide) had said he was the one who should take care of me. Even though they used to take care of me poorly... but I had still gone that day. When I arrived he was in a meeting inside. He had trusted me so much that he had let me go in his office .. I went in to find the Douze people inside discussing the question of renting a car.


Douze Petion was saying, "Let's change this car. Let's do this, but it's going to be tomorrow morning." I called Bartolomew and asked him..."Can I come and get the check?'

He asked, "Don't you know what's happened?

There's a problem in the country. The president is coming in. The radios are broken. That's when I came to realize what the importance there was in the question of renting a car, because they came to say it was the same Douze who had come to rent the car at Avis to give to the Chimere to go and break the radio transmitters.


M What do you know on Cubain's death. [37]


S On Cubain's death.... I don't know anything. I can only say that those guys are two specialists in killing people in that way because when they killed my husband they took his two eyes. [38] Those guys - 5 for Hell - Michael Dauphin?

Is a guy from Cap Haitien, but at that time they were doing something before Cubain's death. He's someone I used to be in touch with. Sometime he used to call me to ask to help him with a card of 50 gourdes, 250 gourdes... (TELEPHONE CARDS) to say he was in Port-au-Prince. At that time I didn't know that the job he was doing from Port-au-Prince to Gonaives, if it was Cubain's work. But since those guys are such specialists in killing people I think that there isn't a crime that was committed in the country that those guys were not involved with.


M What do you know about Paul Odenel ?

[39]


S Paul Odenel, the way you hear it, doesn't know anything. The only thing I've heard is that Paul Odenel was inside the National Palace. It's a team that came and got him in Jean-Claude Jean-Baptiste's office and then he disappeared. They say they cut him in pieces and tossed in the sea. That's what people say. I didn't see it with my own eyes.


M Is it OP chiefs saying that?


S Yes. It's in the group of OPs that some guy that used to be in Paul's team that said that he regrets what happened. It's inside a demonstration that some OP chief said...look how Paul died and look how Cubain died today. Today it's their turn... tomorrow it will be our's. They all used to complain - comment about that.


M Thank you very much Sonja and I wish you a good future.


S At the right moment, If Vision 2000 ever needs an interview they can call me.. Anybody who would like to ask details of what I said today, I can verify it. You could always call me and put them in contact with me.


M But do you give me authorization. For example, if the authorities, or another radio station needs to talk to you.... can I give out your telephone number?


S. No, I have no problem for another radio. (Station) Call me before to tell me the time they will call me so I can be available to them.


M So, does that mean I can give out your phone number so they can contact you?


S. Naturally I cannot tell you yes. This number is not mine. Tomorrow morning I will take a cell phone that will be my own. And I will call you Marie Luce and you can give it out to the radios so they can call me and ask me questions. I have no problem. I am very open to questions.

END OF INTERVIEW


Aristide Foundation

Doctor Paul Farmer, Joanne Kehoe, Ira J. Kurzban, Carole Sambale-Tennert, Mildred Aristide;

US Board of Advisors: Michael Barnes, Taylor Branch, Dr. Glen Bucher, Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Rep. Ron Dellums, Jonathan Demme, David Dinkins, Danny Glover, Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Ethel Kennedy, Rep. Joseph P. Kennedy, Charles J. Ogletree, Rep. Major Owens, Rep. Donald M. Payne, Rep. Carrie P. Meek, N.C. Murthy, Randall Robinson, Rep. Charles B. Rangel, Michael Ratner, Julia Roberts, Ed Saxon, Irwin Stotsky, Susan Taylor, Rep. Maxine Waters



An intelligent person cannot live in Haiti without knowing what it going on. If they continued to live in Haiti and openly act as a spokesman for the Aristide regime, one can only assume their parallel philosophy.

[1] POPULAR ORGANIZATIONS - OP: Undersecretary of State Roger Noriega insisted that Aristide comply with Resolutions 822 and... To do so he had to bring to justice all those involved with certain crimes. The Americans knew who they were. They also knew the criminals involved were working under Aristide's personal control. If Aristide did not comply, there was no future for his government. If he did comply, he would be revealed for what he was/is the head of a criminal organization exceeding the power of America's Mafia. His families are known as Popular Organizations - Organizations Populaire, a neat name to cover their real purpose which was the control and intimidation of specific areas. Each area had a Popular Organization - OP - headed by a gang-leader, ready to kill or maim anyone resisting Aristide/Lavalas control. Many died on Aristide's direct orders.


One could either support right wing death squads (which did not exist) or Popular Organizations (which did exist). Activists loved the name Popular Organization, thinking it reflected grassroots support. It didn't!


When Noriega's pressure reached a peak, Aristide had to take some sort of action to comply with the American's demands. Before doing so he took steps to kill over three dozen OP leaders. He could then lie without the danger of anyone contradicting him. From past experience he knew that dead men or women tell no tales.

[2]A large public market that was burned on Aristide's command.

[3] Aristide had Rolande Cadavre imprisoned. Then he had the man slowly poisoned to death. This was at a time Aristide killed something like 36 Popular Organization leaders to kep them from telling their stories to the United Nations and the State Department.

[4]This argument didn't work for the Nazis.

[5] By Families, she means Lavalas Families, political/terrorist groupings within the district, similar to Mafia families in the States only more dangerous. These Familias and OPs - Popular Organizations, kept their areas through the liberal application of violence, against outsiders and their own.

[6]Labanye and Colibri were two extremely vicious Lavalas OP - Popular Organization leaders/enforcers within the slums.

[7] Give him their heads:In other words - kill them.

[8] A typical Aristide promotion.Michael-Ange Dauphin was so efficient, as a killer, that Jean-Claude Jean Baptiste took him from the lowest slot - Agent 4 th Class and elevated him to Commissioner of Police.

[9] Bonhomme is trying to be polite. Roland was a very dangerous and feared leader of Aristide's Popular Organizations. Angels did not get the job. You had to be a killer to hold your seat.

[10] Market. With control of a market you had carte blanche to demand protection money.

[11] We can take revenge.

[12] Demonstration.

[13]One team was made up of sincere people who believed they were working for a just cause. The other team was made up of criminals who did the dirty work. At times, the criminal team would kill supporters in the good team so their deaths could blamed on opposition elements. This approach reached reached a high stage of refinement after Aristide's departure, February 29, 2004. Even in exile, Aristide retained control of the PNH - National Police from South Africa. He ordered element of the police force to kill Lavalas demonstrators, these killings were then blamed on anti-Lavalas elements. In other words, Lavalas killed Lavalas and then blamed someone else. This has been a standard Aristide maneuver for years.

[14]This comment indicates that Sonya remained an insider. Only those trusted by Aristide would be allowed such a responsibility.

[15]Pilon is the mortar portion of a mortar and pestle .

[16] Doctor Marie Antoinette Gauthier was Director of the Port-au-Prince General Hospital. Another doctor tells of her going around, talking with expectant mothers in an effort to discover who was about to give birth to their first child. Aristide's ceremony required a first born, preferably male. This is really cold-blooded premeditation.

[17] Houngan - Voodoo priest

[18] Jocerlerme Privert, Aristide's Interior Minister, now charged with initiated the Les Cayes Massacre in 2004 on Aristide's direct order..

[19]Jean-Marie Cherestal, Aristide's lifelong friend and one-time Prime Minister. In June of 2004 he declared his candidacy as Lavalas presidential candidate.

[20] She was starting to be cautious since all of the key Lavalas heirarchy was there and were easily recognizable.

[21] Florida is a perfume used in ceremonies.

[22] A simple murderer would want to get rid of the body, once and for all. In Aristide's case, he might wish to recall the spirit. Because of this, he had to bury the body in a known location, leaving him open to blackmail by the brave and stupid. Like Felix Ben Aime these fools would find their own bed in the cemetary.

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