Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti



Rejoignez le forum, c’est rapide et facile

Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

Vous souhaitez réagir à ce message ? Créez un compte en quelques clics ou connectez-vous pour continuer.
Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

FOROM AYITI : Tèt Ansanm Pou'n Chanje Ayiti.

Le Deal du moment :
Smartphone Xiaomi POCO M4 5G – 6.43″ -FHD ...
Voir le deal
127.92 €
Le Deal du moment : -59%
TEFAL Marmite 28 cm inox – Tous feux dont ...
Voir le deal
21.99 €

4 participants

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Ven 21 Jan 2011 - 21:01

Quite normal people can be insane politically; that is they would live by illusions and self-congratulations in the presence of no political future whatsoever by insisting that they are ever closer and closer to their ultimate political goals; and I BELIEVE that such a condition rightly fits the hard-core "Duvalieristes"
let me be state clearly that i believe that it would be in the best interest of our future for president Preval to issue an amnesty that would pardon all past political crimes and subsequently pardon their perpetrators;and that would include Jean Claude, Aristide, Cedras and others.

With that being said, I believe that Jean Claude has no political future in Haiti despite the enthusiasm of his very loyal supporters. it is worth noting that in history, many former dictators who were pushed out of office had successfully re-engineered their image to the point of regaining power via democratic means. but all these successes have three things in common:
the dictator in question is a populist, charismatic, former military man : in chaotic situations where political factions and ethnic divisions are rampant, the reappearance of a former strong man with military discipline on the scene__ with political cosmetic make-over___ can be quite welcome by a populace tired of and overwhelmed by the constancy of political chaos and conflicts.
but Jean Claude Duvalier is not charismatic, does not project an image of strength, nor has he YET undergone a political make-over.

The man does not speak the language of the tired people: his cadence and style of speech are too relaxed for young people in need of inspiration.

The man does not project an image of strength: He looks pale and even senile for his age(only 59) and therefore projects an image of sickness or morbidity. it is bad symbolically for a country in need of rejuvenation after years of death, diseases and natural calamities.

the man has not gone through a political make-over: he does not have a political party with prominent former adversaries as allies; that is a necessary political make-over because it would send an image of renewal, and of reconciliation. it would create the myth of rebirth, and therefore help blur the nefarious aspects of his past. In fact, most of his friends are of same old guard.

and there is the woman in his life: it has been argued that jean Claude's problems stemmed from his having been controlled and manipulated by an ambitious woman, namely Michelle Bennett. but compared to Veronique Roy, Michelle Bennett is a dove. this is a woman who went to Haiti, started a Duvalier center, sued the powerful Mevs family for stolen properties while still speaking creole with a heavy accent; She did all that while not officially Jean Claude's wife. And to top it all, not ONLY does she have colossal political ambitions, she has presidential connections in the past by being the grand-daughter of PRESIDENT Magloire.
so, the reality of Veronique reinforces the perception of jean clause as a manipulable leader, particularly by whomever happens to be the woman in his life. that my friend is a kiss of death in Haitian politics, particularly after we have internalized the myth of Michelle Bennett in our political psyche.

avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Ven 21 Jan 2011 - 23:01

Do you think the germans should grant an amnesty to the nazis who killed 6 milions of their brothers and sisters under the pretext that they contributed to the economic vows of germany?Do you think the dominicans should grant amnesty to all trujillistes despite the facts that they killed all these dominicans,and yet it needs to be said that trujillo left the dominican republic in better shape than when he assumed the presidency the first time ;which is not the case with the Duvaliers.Do you think the Chileans should give amnesty to all these officers and soldiers who killed so many of their compatriots in the Santiago stadium after the coup d'etat?

you are preaching impunity not reconciliation.
ainsi ne soit-il
ainsi ne soit-il
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 2404
Localisation : terre-neuve
Loisirs : chiquer du tabac, molester les molosses
Date d'inscription : 03/05/2010

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle: l'hallucinogène

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  ainsi ne soit-il Sam 22 Jan 2011 - 0:53

OBSERVER KEEN a écrit:let me be state clearly that i believe that it would be in the best interest of our future for president Preval to issue an amnesty that would pardon all past political crimes and subsequently pardon their perpetrators;and that would include Jean Claude, Aristide, Cedras and others.

Wow! I cannot believe you thought that. It's like you wrote all the people off. You have no idea of what happened during the presidency of JCD. Listen, I witnessed the disappearance of young men, the pain of their fiancées or girlfriends, the fear in the eyes of their friends or acquaintances, a whole family that could not survive the loss of their beloved son and brother. I already told the misery of several families I knew during that era... I cannot tell you about my personal experience.

I sincerely believed that Haïtians are saying that this cannot be real, it is just a bad dream. We were already coping with that devastating earthquake and suddenly, every day has become another stab in our scarring wounds with the on-going presence of Jean-Claude Duvalier in Haïti. Shit!

Lan piyay enpunite, m'pa wè pou ki sa profitè a pa ta la itou. Kantite asasen k'ap sikule libr an Ayiti. Preval regle koze'l byen. Ala yon lese grenen, papa.
avatar
Invité
Invité


An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Invité Sam 22 Jan 2011 - 11:23

I know someone that was forced to leave Haiti in the mid 60's even if he wasn't in any political party; He had the chance of leaving by his "willing"(Well, If we can call this willing ) since then, he NEVER RETURNED.

My parents I also know someone that was also forced to exile because of his skin color.He left Haiti leaving behind wife,kids, family. He returned a few years later imploring the fact that he wanted to stay in his country and nowhere else. Again he was forced to leave this time with all his family and loosing all what he had in the country.

Again in this case, They NEVER RETURNED.
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Dim 23 Jan 2011 - 0:10

at some point, you have to stop a vicious cycle! are we willing to try everybody for crimes because the list would be very long! we are all guilty, aren't WE? what gives the Preval administration the moral high ground to try Duvalier? YES, HE STOLE MONEY, BUT WHERE DID CELESTIN GET ALL THIS MONEY IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME FOR HIS CAMPAIGN?
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Dim 23 Jan 2011 - 0:24

All of them ,regardless of the time and place ,should appear in front of a judge.No impunity.We ask for justice:Jean claude, Aristide,Preval and their acolytes should face a popular tribunal.Anmweeeeeeee justice for the people of haiti.
ainsi ne soit-il
ainsi ne soit-il
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 2404
Localisation : terre-neuve
Loisirs : chiquer du tabac, molester les molosses
Date d'inscription : 03/05/2010

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle: l'hallucinogène

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  ainsi ne soit-il Dim 23 Jan 2011 - 15:39

We are not demanding that they try anybody for bad decisions but for violent crimes, for theft, elatrèy. The country is going nowhere.

Some people have no idea of what they are talking about. I don't know where you have learnt to be so forgiving and why... At no time in my life, I have internalized the idea that a criminal should go free.

Anyway, Aytians are well known now for their cowardise and their foolishness. How did François Duvalier manage to kill the nineteen (19) officers without being overthrown by the army? Instead of a kidnapping attempt (of his son), why these frustrated opponents did not just shoot Papa Doc himself?

I am hearing ex-members of the army claiming that JCD should be tried for murder and treason but they did nothing when he was killing their peers.

Where is the real revolutionary? Yeah! When you join the military, you don't take an oath to the president even if he was the commander in chief. That's what Duvalier knew so he created the militia. That's what JCD understood when he founded his own army, le Corps des Léopards. These are illegitimate unprecedented moves by any authoritarian regim ine the area. Papa Doc was a very backward man, so is his son who still thinks that he was born to rule Ayiti, meaning that he was chosen by a superpower to hold back the people of Ayiti. Lame se fatra!

I undertand that Aytians are so forgiving because they believe they are not any better than Papa Doc and JCD. Indeed, so many of them must be hiding skeletons in their closets... Yeah! We need something like a Weakyleaks to find out why they are so subdued and so obedient. Why, in some cases, can't they stick to their position?

I don't believe in the Ayitian justice system. Anyway there is no such thing. It is just another masquerade. People all over the world are laughing at a group of dunces improvizing. How can you explain that the so-called le bachelier de PAP has designated himself to defend Duvalier? Non-sense. Most of all, the restavèk even despised the people's intelligence by promoting the return to power of JCD. Stupid monkey.

One thing I learnt a long time ago is that when a patriotic group wants to rid a country of a ruthless stateman, either they catch and hang him or BAZOOKA...! And in a world of fiction like cinema, monsters are a threat to kretyen vivan. So they are never allowed to win. Unless they are wiped, they always come back to haunt the people.

The last thing that devastated land needs is Jean-Clown.


Dernière édition par martine la tourmente le Dim 23 Jan 2011 - 22:01, édité 1 fois
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Dim 23 Jan 2011 - 20:23

Jean Clown knows they are a bunch of cowards. As his father said after killing the 19 Army officers:"Ce ne sont pas des hommes".He was right.All those men who were victimized by Jean Clown should be ashamed of themeselves.Jean Clown should tell them STFU,martine, do you think there is a haitian who has the courage to do what the Iraquian did to Georges Bush during his conference in iraq?Sometimes i wonder if France wants to reconquer haiti will there be a Toussaint louverture and jean jacques dessalines among this elite?
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 16:05

a state of rights and laws cannot be created by prosecuting past crimes; a state of law is done by instituting structures to prevent the occurrences of past crimes in the present and the future; the reason is simple, and it has to do with the survivability of nascent institutions: powerful people are less likely to resist the new structures and the new game in town if those rules are not being applied against them in retroactive and selective manner.
first of all, from a legal point of view, one cannot use the 1987 constitution to prosecute him because the constitution in vigor back then made him legally a supreme ruler of the land with a subservient parliament. and political parties were illegal back then; we were living in a police state legally. so, the best we can do is just sue him in a civil court because civil court tends to apply universal standards of fairness.
look, I have always advocated an amnesty for all these guys, particularly after what happened; history shows that powerful people tend to conform to new laws and rules of the game if they are assured of no penalty for past political crimes. Chile would have never become a viable democracy if they have made no offer of amnesties to many individuals of Pinochet's inner-circle.
sometimes the best justice for a nation is not to prosecute; justice does not mean necessarily punish the perpetrators, because it can mean also recognizing the sacrifices of others. for instance, creating a center of national reflection over those crimes thus creating in the process a conscious safeguard against totalitarian reemergence would have been great; we do that as we foster political freedom in honor of the victims of the Duvalier regime; and that may be the most appropriate form of justice available to our current predicament; such as transforming "Fort Dimanche" into a museum where we got to know the individuals who perished there may be the best justice. how unjust to the victims, and morally bankrupt that the so-called progressives of our time have been( i.e president aristide) by allowing the fort-dimance prison to become a garbage dump and pig-farm instead of center of learning and civic education, and national reflection; the best justice would have been to transform that dreaded place into a center of civic rejuvenation and in the process we would have morally and philosophically defeated Duvaliarism. instead of claiming "how good is the smell of pe lebrun", the best revenge would have been form civic leaders and community organizers on the renovated premises of that old dreaded place.
justice does not have to be punitive my good friend.


Dernière édition par OBSERVER KEEN le Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 20:55, édité 2 fois
avatar
Invité
Invité


An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Invité Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 16:58

Observer keen,

It is how I knew the new breed of revolutionaries were not sincere .They were incapable to see the simple vison that is within your thought :


"...transforming "Fort Dimanche" into a museum where we got to know the individuals who perished there may be the best justice."

No sense of communal atonement or symbolism .No uplifting thought to seed the dawn of tomorrow .
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 17:53

"a state of rights and laws cannot be created by prosecuting past crimes;"Keen

This is at best an oxymoron.The Nuremberg tribunal was a non sense.The judgement of Sadham Hussein is useless. Even God's final judgement is irrelevant,according to Master keen.(lol).Wouyyyy why did I go to metaphysique to make keen understand that it is by puting the dictators in front of a tribunal that they will stop doing what they do to the people.If I follow your logic Idi Amin should not be judged.Pinochet should not be judged ,Castro should not have punished the criminals who killed the cubans during the Batista dictatorship.The generals who killed Trujillo to liberate their country of this son of a bitch were wrong?

Yes we need strong institutions ,but you and I know that all institutions are made of men and women who can be corrupted.In 1957 haiti had an army,a Senate , a chamber of deputies.The executive, legislative and judiciairy branches of government existed and were composed of people of characters ;not ass kissers..How did Duvalier find a way to impose his will on 5 million haitians? You should try to understand this process first before stating the affirmation I refered to.

To corrupt the army he played the game of dividing to conquer.he understood the mentality of military officers :they all want to attend higher rankings in the hierarchy even if they have to betray their comrades.After he sent Kebreau to the Vatican,he promoted Flambert as Brigadier General to replace kebreau,but he created the grade of Major General in the army to boost Flambert's ego if i am not mistaken. When the officers invaded the Casernes dessalines barracks Flambert wanted to remove Duvalier from the palace under the pretext that it was not safe for him to stay there,but according to certain people Flambert wanted to get rid of Duvalier..Jacques gracia who was a simple adjudant refused to let Duvalier adhere to Flambert's advice.he said to Duvalier :You stay right here.we will get rid of these traitors.This is the way Gracia, Henry namphy , Jean Baptiste Hilaire organized a counter attack and killed the invaders.Immeditaly after that episode , Duvalier got rid of Flambert.When he wanted to create the V.S.N corps I think It was Boucicaut or flambert who said no. He has his right man as commander of the Port-au-Prince police ,Major Pierre merceron who said yes you can do that ,but I am not the chief of staff of the army.Duvalier said ;From now on you are.This is the way he took a major ,Lieutenant Colonel ad honores and made him Brigadier general of the army by revoking all the other officers who were in front of Merceron in the military hierarchy.That night Merceron and Daniel and john beauvoir came to the headquarters of service of transmissions in Saint martin street because he wanted to transfer 2 officers who were in Cap haitien and grande Riviere du Nord :One was capitaine Alexis, and the other was lieutenant Kernizan ;Merceron could not remember kernizan name on the spot ;I have to tell him his name because I' ve just been tranfered to Port-au-prince from grande Riviere du nord..i ,the ti "bet seren" wrote the message right away and sent it to the Commanding offficer of the Militray department of North who was reformed by the same order.: MERCERON ASKED ME TO WRITE THE MESSAGE IN FRONT OF CAPITAINE ROBERT ANDRE who was the commanding officer of the service des transmissions.

All the Colonels who were members of the high command of the army and the colonels who were commanding officers of the 5 different military Departments were reformed that night.Not one of them did anything because they didn't have any arm at their disposal in their arsenal to march against the capital ;The little arms that the army had Duvalier had already transfered them to the palace.after creating the palace guard.You figure out how can we call this an army?all the arms were consfiscated by the president.a few M1 and mitraillettes that were in casernes dessalines could not prevent this shame for the army because Duvalier had already divided the offficers corps of the army.jacques gracia ,namphy , hilaire , romain,Borges, have more authotirty than the Colonels who were members of the army staff in the grand Quartier general.To understand what was going one has to remember this :a second leiutenant who have just graduated from the academy ,i don't want to write his name ,made another mulatto officer go to one of the embassies in port -au-prince because he said to the mulatto, How come under the regime of president Duvalier people like you are still in the Armed forces. the mulatto name is Gontrand Desmangles.

This is the same way he corrupted the legislative branch of government after killing the Senators who refused to adhere to his second mandate that he "obtained"by manipulating the votes in a legislative election.These are not facts that i am learning in a book ;I was there as a witness and i can swear on the bible that this is the truth in front of any committee.


Dernière édition par Le gros roseau le Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 19:25, édité 6 fois
avatar
Joel
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 17750
Localisation : USA
Loisirs : Histoire
Date d'inscription : 24/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle: Le patriote

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Joel Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 18:04

KEEN;

I really don't understand.If I follow your arguments ,whatever HITLER and MUSSOLINI were doing was also legal.How come not only the nazi potentates were found guilty of crimes against humanity but even some judges?
Some of them were hanged and some spent time in jail.

About PINOCHET.Yes there was amnesty after the dictatorship ;simply because the PINOCHETISTS were still in control of the state apparatus;but after a couple of elections ,the CHILEAN PEOPLE asked for the repeal of the amnesty.
More than 200 PINOCHETISTS ,MILITARY AND CIVILIANS, were arrested,found guilty and are purging jail sentences
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:05

Le gros roseau a écrit:"a state of rights and laws cannot be created by prosecuting past crimes;"Keen

This is at best an oxymoron.The Nuremberg tribunal was a non sense.The judgement of Sadham Hussein is useless. Even God's final judgement is irrelevant,according to Master keen.(lol).Wouyyyy why did I go to metaphysique to make keen understand that it is by puting the dictators in front of a tribunal that they will stop doing what they do to the people.If I follow your logic Idi Amin should not be judged.Pinochet should not be judged ,Castro should not have punished the criminals who killed the cubans during the Batista dictatorship.The generals who killed Trujillo to liberate their country of this son of a bitch were wrong?

Yes we need strong institutions ,but you and I know that all institutions are made of men and women who can be corrupted.In 1957 haiti had an army,a Senate , a chamber of deputies.The executive, legislative and judiciairy branches of government existed and were composed of people of characters ;not ass kissers..How did Duvalier find a way to impose his will on 5 million haitians? You should try to understand this process first before stating the affirmation I refered to.

To corrupt the army he played the game of dividing to conquer.he understood the mentality of military officers :they all want to attend higher rankings in the hierarchy even if they have to betray their comrades.After he sent Kebreau to the Vatican,he promoted Flambert as Brigadier General to replace kebreau,but he created the grade of Major General in the army to boost Flambert's ego if i am not mistaken. When the officers invaded the Casernes dessalines barracks Flambert wanted to remove Duvalier from the palace under the pretext that it was not safe for him to stay there,but according to certain people Flambert wanted to get rid of Duvalier..Jacques gracia who was a simple adjudant refused to let Duvalier adhere to Flambert's advice.he said to Duvalier :You stay right here.we will get rid of these traitors.This is the way Gracia, Henry namphy , Jean Baptiste Hilaire organized a counter attack and killed the invaders.Immeditaly after that episode , Duvalier got rid of Flambert.When he wanted to create the V.S.N corps I think It was Boucicaut or flambert who said no. He has his right man as commander of the Port-au-Prince police ,Major Pierre merceron who said yes you can do that ,but I am not the chief of staff of the army.Duvalier said ;From now on you are.This is the way he took a major ,Lieutenant Colonel ad honores and made him Brigadier general of the army by revoking all the other officers who were in front of Merceron in the military hierarchy.That night Merceron and Daniel and john beauvoir came to the headquarters of service of transmissions in Saint martin street because he wanted to transfer 2 officers who were in Cap haitien and grande Riviere du Nord :One was capitaine Alexis, and the other was lieutenant Kernizan ;Merceron could not remember kernizan name on the spot ;I have to tell him his name because I' ve just been tranfered to Port-au-prince from grande Riviere du nord..i ,the ti "bet seren" wrote the message right away and sent it to the Commanding offficer of the Militray department of North who was reformed by the same order.: MERCERON ASKED ME TO WRITE THE MESSAGE IN FRONT OF CAPITAINE ROBERT ANDRE who was the commanding officer of the service des transmissions.

All the Colonels who were members of the high command of the army and the colonels who were commanding officers of the 5 different military Departments were reformed that night.Not one of them did anything because they didn't have any arm at their disposal in their arsenal to march against the capital ;The little arms that the army had Duvalier had already transfered them to the palace.after creating the palace guard.You figure out how can we call this an army?all the arms were consfiscated by the president.a few M1 and mitraillettes that were in casernes dessalines could not prevent this shame for the army because Duvalier had already divided the offficers corps of the army.jacques gracia ,namphy , hilaire , romain,Borges, have more authotirty than the Colonels who were members of the army staff in the grand Quartier general.To understand what was going one has to remember this :a second leiutenant who have just graduated from the academy ,i don't want to write his name ,made another mulatto officer go to one of the embassies in port -au-prince because he said to the mulatto, How come under the regime of president Duvalier people like you are still in the Armed forces. the mulatto name is Gontrand Desmangles.

This is the same way he corrupted the legislative branch of government after killing the Senators who refused to adhere to his second mandate that he "obtained"by manipulating the votes in a legislative election.These are not facts that i am learning in a book ;I was there as a witness and i can swear on the bible that this is the truth in front of any committee.


we Haitians have gone through the explosive catharsis: we burned some of them alive, we destroyed their houses, we forced them to flee. WHAT do we need to do to these folks?
at what point do we stop the vicious cycle? there are so many guilty people politically that we cannot in all fairness be selective in the application of the law and then call it justice!!!
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:16

The Germans should not prosecute Heischman ,according to your logic.The french should not judged Petain?The Chilean should not judge Pinochet?Answer me
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:16

Joel a écrit:KEEN;

I really don't understand.If I follow your arguments ,whatever HITLER and MUSSOLINI were doing was also legal.How come not only the nazi potentates were found guilty of crimes against humanity but even some judges?
Some of them were hanged and some spent time in jail.

About PINOCHET.Yes there was amnesty after the dictatorship ;simply because the PINOCHETISTS were still in control of the state apparatus;but after a couple of elections ,the CHILEAN PEOPLE asked for the repeal of the amnesty.
More than 200 PINOCHETISTS ,MILITARY AND CIVILIANS, were arrested,found guilty and are purging jail sentences


I do not mean to say that; I mean to say that we cannot apply justice selectively; yes, it was legal but it was immoral but those IMMORAL laws were voted in by a parliament that his party controlled. he was not guilty by the law of his country, but found guilty by the standards of universal morality. the laws in vigor gave him the power to do exactly what he did, but they were terrible laws made BY the majority; there is nothing in the concept of law-making that says that the law has to be morally right; laws are made by politicians. that is the reason that i do not argue from a legal point of view, but rather from a moral point of view. for instance, a bunch of laws in the Islamic world are plain wrong from a universal moral point of view, but they are the law of the land.
yes, there are some really bad elements that have to be called into account people like luc desir, madan marx aldolph cambronne, but these bastards are all dead now!
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:25

"that is the reason that i do not argue from a legal point of view, but rather from a moral point of view. " keen

You would have a more valid argument from a legal point of view because you could evoke the statute of limitation,even if it were not applicable in the Nuremberg trial and in any crime against humanity.But when you go to the moral field there you have no argument whatsoever.Why do you think the dominicans do not allow the trujillo acolytes to publish any book or aticles in the newspapers that try to absolve trujillo?
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:29

Le gros roseau a écrit:The Germans should not prosecute Heischman ,according to your logic.The french should not judged Petain?The Chilean should not judge Pinochet?Answer me


Petain was a national traitor! jean claude does not have the same status as a national traitor: that guy collaborated with the enemy while his country was at war.
you are comparing apples and oranges, jean claude was bad but he was not as bad as some dictators that I have heard of in history. WAS not one of the chief arguments against him from the true bloody Duvalierists was that he was not willing to be as brutal as his dad? i believe it when he said that he did not want a bloodbath when he left office because he did have the means to really crush the uprising! he could have unleashed the tonton macoute to crush the rebellion; in fact, that is exactly what avril and michele bennette advocated for, but he said no each time. these are facts too! he did not massacre in a desperate attempt to stay in power even though he did have the means and the state apparatus to carry out the operation.
he was a bad president, he was a lousy leader, a failure, but he may not have been as blood-thirsty as some of you are claiming. you cannot compare the guy to idi amin dada. that is grossly unfair!
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:34

Go tell it to the mountains of north west of haiti of la Gonave where people were starving to death while he was siphoning the money from the treasury under the pretext he was using the funds requested for charitable purposes.Go tell it to Marcus garcia, jean robert herard, Gabriel herard, Elsie Theart, Jean Dominique and his wife.gasner raymond,danny Laferiere,pierre Clitandre whose father was assassinated and all those who lost their loves ones;there is a list of his victims on this site why don't you take the time to count how many known people were murdered during his regime. Even his Ambassador to the United Nations begged him to release the prisoners in fort dimanche ;why didn't he do it?


Dernière édition par Le gros roseau le Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:44, édité 1 fois
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:42

martine la tourmente a écrit:
We are not demanding that they try anybody for bad decisions but for violent crimes, for theft, elatrèy. The country is going nowhere.

Some people have no idea of what they are talking about. I don't know where you have learnt to be so forgiving and why... At no time in my life, I have internalized the idea that a criminal should go free.

Anyway, Aytians are well known now for their cowardise and their foolishness. How did François Duvalier manage to kill the nineteen (19) officers without being overthrown by the army? Instead of a kidnapping attempt (of his son), why these frustrated opponents did not just shoot Papa Doc himself?

I am hearing ex-members of the army claiming that JCD should be tried for murder and treason but they did nothing when he was killing their peers.

Where is the real revolutionary? Yeah! When you join the military, you don't take an oath to the president even if he was the commander in chief. That's what Duvalier knew so he created the militia. That's what JCD understood when he founded his own army, le Corps des Léopards. These are illegitimate unprecedented moves by any authoritarian regim ine the area. Papa Doc was a very backward man, so is his son who still thinks that he was born to rule Ayiti, meaning that he was chosen by a superpower to hold back the people of Ayiti. Lame se fatra!

I undertand that Aytians are so forgiving because they believe they are not any better than Papa Doc and JCD. Indeed, so many of them must be hiding skeletons in their closets... Yeah! We need something like a Weakyleaks to find out why they are so subdued and so obedient. Why, in some cases, can't they stick to their position?

I don't believe in the Ayitian justice system. Anyway there is no such thing. It is just another masquerade. People all over the world are laughing at a group of dunces improvizing. How can you explain that the so-called le bachelier de PAP has designated himself to defend Duvalier? Non-sense. Most of all, the restavèk even despised the people's intelligence by promoting the return to power of JCD. Stupid monkey.

One thing I learnt a long time ago is that when a patriotic group wants to rid a country of a ruthless stateman, either they catch and hang him or BAZOOKA...! And in a world of fiction like cinema, monsters are a threat to kretyen vivan. So they are never allowed to win. Unless they are wiped, they always come back to haunt the people.

The last thing that devastated land needs is Jean-Clown.


hey, you do not know me. have you ever been shot at? have you ever been in a battle zone? no!!! so strength does not mean that you have to be vindictive all the time; there are times and situations that amnesty is the best course of action. but the patriots can slowly become the tyrants as in the case of the soviet union as they become are too blood_thirsty and self-righteous. remember Robespierre during the reign of terror? people with good intentions can become villains too even if they are killing other villains; because they are too passionate about killing villains, then next thing you know they are killing perceived villains, and they are killing those who are tired of the killing of villains, and then they are killing those that do not participate in the killing of villains. do you get my point? if you are cooking food and you put too much fire in the hope of cooking it faster, you may end up burning your food to the point of making it inedible.
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:46

Le gros roseau a écrit:Go tell it to the mountains of north west of haiti of la Gonave where people were starving to death while he was siphoning the money from the treasury under the pretext he was using the funds requested for charitable purposes.Go tell it to Marcus garcia, jean robert herard, Gabriel herard, Elsie Theart, Jean Dominique and his wife.gasner raymond,danny Laferiere,pierre Clitandre whose father was assassinated and all those who lost their loves ones;there is a list of his victims on this site why don't you take the time to count how many known people were murdered during his regime. Even his Ambassador to the United Nations begged him to release the prisoners in fort dimanche ;why didn't he do it?



yes, the man did plenty of bad and very bad things, but you do not need to grossly exaggerate his level of bad by associating him with idi ami, mussollini, pinochet and hitler. by saying that, you are doing a disservice to historical facts. that was my point!!
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 21:55

Le gros roseau a écrit:Do you think the germans should grant an amnesty to the nazis who killed 6 milions of their brothers and sisters under the pretext that they contributed to the economic vows of germany?Do you think the dominicans should grant amnesty to all trujillistes despite the facts that they killed all these dominicans,and yet it needs to be said that trujillo left the dominican republic in better shape than when he assumed the presidency the first time ;which is not the case with the Duvaliers.Do you think the Chileans should give amnesty to all these officers and soldiers who killed so many of their compatriots in the Santiago stadium after the coup d'etat?

you are preaching impunity not reconciliation.


..then Mandela must have been for impunity because Botha was NOT put in prison! he was smart ENOUGH TO realize that he did not need to create martyrs for the angry and well-armed white reactionaries from old apartheid regime.
there are times my friend, peace and justice require no jail_time just a recognition that you did wrong. why do you thing a judge can use his discretion to suspend the jail_sentence of a promising young man? because the judge knows that the young man broke the law, but he also IS aware of social justice, and he can consider the potential good in the promising young man that society as a whole may benefit from him staying out of prison in order to finish his school?
i am not saying that that analogy fits the Duvalier case, but what i am trying to show is that the essence of my argument is this: sometimes the strict application of the law in vigor may not be the best course of action as far as justice is concerned.
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 22:18

Tell me the difference between them?They all killed innocent people to maintain their power ,and they stole money from the treasury of their country.Whether Idi amin klilled 100 Thousands and Jean clown killed 30 thousands is the same thing.

Your comparaison between the situation in South Africa after Mandela was released from jail and the situation in haiti right now is ludicrous.Mandela could not put Botha in jail .you and I know that.Preval has the right to ask the judiciary to do its job.As i said before Jean clown should be allowed to have lawyers to defend him as any other accused;and if he were to be found not guilty he should be able to live in his country as any other citizen.


Dernière édition par Le gros roseau le Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 22:28, édité 1 fois
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 22:28

YOU TELL ME WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING SHOT IN THE HEAD AND BEING SHOT IN THE STOMACH? THEY BOTH CAN KILL YOU, BUT YOU DO HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVING STOMACH SHOT, DON'T YOU? OH WHAT ABOUT DIABETES AND MALIGNANT TUMOR IN THE LIVER? HEY, THEY BOTH CAN KILL YOU, BUT WHICH BAD NEWS WOULD YOU LIKE TO GET FROM YOUR INTERNIST IF YOU ARE TO GET AT ONE OF THOSE TWO BAD NEWS?
avatar
Le gros roseau
Super Star
Super Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 9664
Localisation : Usa
Loisirs : sport ,internet,stock market
Date d'inscription : 21/08/2010

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Le gros roseau Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 22:33

irrelevant and inappropriate your analogies.No wonder why you asked the administrator to censure us.Isn't it true all haitians have the makout genes in their DNA.If at the age you came to the United States you're acting like you do.What would happen if you were raised in haiti in the sixities with the power to be a member of the palace guard or the VSN .Wowww you would have beeen worst than Ti boule.(lol)as for dez he would have been more crual than the man with the bible who was questionning Rameau Estime(lol)
avatar
OBSERVER KEEN
Star
Star


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 966
Localisation : USA
Date d'inscription : 29/08/2006

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle:

An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  OBSERVER KEEN Lun 24 Jan 2011 - 22:42

Le gros roseau a écrit:irrelevant and inappropriate your analogies.No wonder why you asked the administrator to censure us.Isn't it true all haitians have the makout genes in their DNA.If at the age you came to the United States you're acting like you do.What would happen if you were raised in haiti in the sixities with the power to be a member of the palace guard or the VSN .Wowww you would have beeen worst than Ti boule.(lol)

Yes, because you and deza are always fighting; and i did not ask them to take your rights away because none of us here has a right to use this medium in the first place;but we are rather given a privilege; but it looks like you and deza love to abuse each other. everyday, you and your rebellious son are debasing or ridiculing each other. and you both are in love with each other. all you do is looking for each other; you cannot wait to have him answer your posts and he cannot wait to see what you are gonna say next.
wow, you two are tailor-made for each other ! lol

Contenu sponsorisé


An analysis of Duvalier 2.0 Empty Re: An analysis of Duvalier 2.0

Message  Contenu sponsorisé


    La date/heure actuelle est Sam 3 Déc 2022 - 4:42